Heal Other and Mind Mace

Diablo 1 HD, codename Belzebub - General forum.
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hellnecrotom
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Heal Other and Mind Mace

Post by hellnecrotom »

Hello there,

As I have started playing with the Necromancer (awesome class), I have noticed that the minions can die pretty well, if you don't support them (of course, I am still on normal, and to increase difficulty, I added the PLAYER !) command). In version 1.03, you could heal the golem, but now, heal other does not work and there is proof to it, as it does not consume mana. Skeletons cannot be healed. Please add Heal Other support to all minions

Logically, Heal Other should work on all minions, yet it does not. I suggest looking into this and fixing it.

Also, mage types have a serious problem with creatures possessing all kinds of resistances. Since Mind Mace has been added and is of course seriously overshadowed by Bone Spirit, the community has suggested changing it to physical damage. I also endorse this change, as it would certainly help in defeating elites/bosses with Sorceror/Necromancer classes.

Tweaking Mind Mace is somewhat of a necessity.

Regards and Cheers :)
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Wingard
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Post by Wingard »

I agree on both of these ideas! Could be nice if we had a mean of healing more that one minion at the same time as well, like a 'Mass heal other' spell, or 'Heal/Buff all minions' skill. :)
Mind mace would be more useful if dealing psyhical damage, though it would have to be much lower than it is now.
hellnecrotom
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Post by hellnecrotom »

Yes, the damage should be lowered, but if we take into consideration the other difficulty levels than normal, the damage could be quite adequate...

Scaling it with character level also in correlation with spell level could be an idea worth considering.

PHYSICAL DAMAGE TO CASTERS MUST BE EMPLOYED.
BrightLord

Post by BrightLord »

NEVER! :(
Nomic
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Post by Nomic »

NEVER! Sad
I agree...a physical damage spell with any kind of potency would end up trumping all other spells, magic classes could just turn into a one-trick pony that only use mind mace since there is no need for other spells.

The elemental drain is a good start for solving the "immune all" problem but I think the other suggestions that monsters should never be immune to all 4 schools and to introduce monster resist instead of monster immune (it was like this in the original Diablo) would solve this problem.
example:

Resist: Fire, Lightning
Immune: Cold, Magic

or even

Resist: Magic
Immune: Fire, Cold, Lightning
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Jofuss
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Post by Jofuss »

Jofuss wrote: I disagree. I do however think that there shouldn't be elites or bosses that are immune to all elements, completely immune to fire and lightning and can only have cold broken with elemental drain and a neg cold resist staff... This coupled with 10 zillion HP makes for a frustrating fight since my cold spells all do very low damage and elemental drain runs out before I've even put a dent in the guy.

While keeping in mind that a lack of physical damage tends to be THE disadvantage of a sorcerer (unless you go battlemage or whatnot,) consider the following:

What about a spell that does physical damage? Something along the lines of "Magic Stone" (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Magic_Stone) from dungeons and dragons. Yes I know apocalypse has partial physical damage... but that's endgame. I'm talking about a lowly spell that isn't too terribly powerful but deals mostly (all?) physical damage that can be obtained around the time you start seeing the quad immunes. Mind mace seemed an excellent addition, until I noticed its magic damage... When I originally got it and saw it I thought it was physical...

I also do not necessarily want things EASIER... I just want to be able to play without rage-quitting because of things that are ridiculous. Making a situation where you die in 1 hit does not make it "HARD" it makes it frustrating, annoying, and foolish. I want a challenge when I come to a boss but I want it to be more about strategy and less about the RNG.
REF: http://awake.diablo1.eu.org/boss-difficulty-t550.html

This is most likely the source of hellnecrotom's mind mace comment.

The suggestion was taken out of context in that it was a suggestion as to the heavy use of quad immune monsters and bosses. The intended recommendation was for low damage physical spell on par with stone curse/golem and a sword for damage just as an alternate play style.

I personally would rather see resistances and immunities reworked as well as damage vs monster hitpoints. This is likely a more daunting task though. The idea is that any other class (minus barbarian) is capable of adding elemental damage in the form of spells. All classes are able to add elemental damage in the form of weapon enchantments. These numbers are low amounts but still there. A sorcerer is USUALLY built in such a way that they are basically incapable of dealing physical damage. I personally don't mind having a "Battlemage" set of gear when I need to get my hands dirty but I'm not sure that should be the only method of doing physical damage as a sorcerer.

If you recall, I was actually one of the proponents of changing stone-curse to 75 percent damage reduction. This spell can cause a sorcerer to be able to do SIGNIFICANT physical damage. All I'm saying is there should be a method (spell) of doing physical damage to a small extent.

Also... Can Physical immunes spawn in belzebub? I haven't come across any but would be disappointed if there were none :(
Elle
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Post by Elle »

I agree with this. Physical classes have SOME sources of elemental damage, but sorcerers dont really have sources of physical damage, AND quad immunities are horrendous.

It's not only that. Fire and lightning have amazing damaging skills, fireball, chain lightning, and the two walls. And the guardian. But ice and magic elements do not have such an equavilent. There is no... frost guardian, or frost wall. And there is a frost orb but it costs too much and most of the spikes miss.

And there are many other spells which are interesting... but their mana cost and damage simply dont justify their use. Very few spells (such as the ones i listed) can keep up with the later enemies without every fight feeling like pulling teeth.

If you decide to change the Mind Mace to physical (just try it and see how you like it!), then its damage probably does not need to be nerfed at all. It deals damage per second, and travels quickly enough that the enemies are already damaged very very little for the mana cost.
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Jofuss
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Post by Jofuss »

Elle wrote:
1.) sorcerers dont really have sources of physical damage, AND quad immunities are horrendous.

2.) Fire and lightning have amazing damaging skills, fireball, chain lightning, and the two walls. And the guardian. But ice and magic elements do not have such an equavilent.

3.) If you decide to change the Mind Mace to physical then its damage probably does not need to be nerfed at all.
1.) Nothing is stopping you from collecting and using a good set of "offset" gear for melee (bow? if that's your kind of thing) With decent enough gear for your level, and the spells at your disposal such as mana shield, you can make an effective battlemage. In late normal and early nightmare I found this to be the easiest alternative. Late nightmare it was a much more uncommon problem due to the better negative resistance gear as well as the usability of my spells increasing.

2.) While I constantly wish there was a "Cold Wall" or whatever spell when I run into a behemoth that is immune to everything but cold AFTER elemental drain, I think I would ultimately not like something like that actually introduced. Cold spells "Chill" as well, they can not have the damage output or utility of fire and lightning spells with this added benefit.
I find that with sentinel, blizzard and iceblast I am capable enough to do cold damage the few times I feel the need.

3.) If mind mace WAS changed to physical, the damage would most certainly have to be nerfed. Otherwise I would likely rarely use any other spell... And that's a problem.

In my opinion, the only option for mindmace to be physical damage was in the vein I had suggested when I originally brought up the topic. If it was a relatively low damage spell (less damaging per mana/level than cold) and something along the lines of a single projectile.

Baldur's Gate had the spell "Magical Stone." This spell would do 1-4 physical damage and was a level 1 spell for priests. Comparable magic damage spells of the same level did more damage (Ex: magic missile starts at 2-5 damage, burning hands 2-5, shocking grasp 1-10) The magic damage spells also grew greatly in power and utility whereas the physical damage spell did not.

There would need to be a significant drawback to physical damage based spells to keep them from being overpowered. I just logically can't imagine that a level 50 sorcerer who can hurl meteors and lightning from his fingertips would be too stupid to at the very least use telekinesis to fling rocks at the enemy at high speed if nothing else would hurt it...
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Wingard
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Post by Wingard »

"Frostwall" ? YES! We need this! It could make it way into the first spot of level 4. Infravision would then be placed in lvl 5.

On topic: what if Mind mace did two kinds of damage? Both magic and psyhical. It's graphic sure does make one think there is psyhical damage involved ( spikes ).
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andronnik
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Post by andronnik »

Jofuss wrote:[
I just logically can't imagine that a level 50 sorcerer who can hurl meteors and lightning from his fingertips would be too stupid to at the very least use telekinesis to fling rocks at the enemy at high speed if nothing else would hurt it...
do you want to say, it is possible to throw rocks at them enemy with telekinesis??? Did i use this spell wrong my whole gaming life? :D
uRa!
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Jofuss
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Post by Jofuss »

andronnik wrote:
Jofuss wrote:[
I just logically can't imagine that a level 50 sorcerer who can hurl meteors and lightning from his fingertips would be too stupid to at the very least use telekinesis to fling rocks at the enemy at high speed if nothing else would hurt it...
do you want to say, it is possible to throw rocks at them enemy with telekinesis??? Did i use this spell wrong my whole gaming life? :D
No I'm saying that an arch mage wouldn't just roll over and die because his fire or lightning spells don't work on a target. They would use there magic to launch physical crushing objects at there target. This is not possible in this game though... perhaps something similar should be.

Telekinesis in Diablo 2 had the ability to do small amounts of damage to enemies... although it was lightning damage. O_o My thoughts on that are... "You're doing it wrong"
Elle
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Post by Elle »

Jofuss wrote:
Elle wrote:
1.) sorcerers dont really have sources of physical damage, AND quad immunities are horrendous.

2.) Fire and lightning have amazing damaging skills, fireball, chain lightning, and the two walls. And the guardian. But ice and magic elements do not have such an equavilent.

3.) If you decide to change the Mind Mace to physical then its damage probably does not need to be nerfed at all.
1.) Nothing is stopping you from collecting and using a good set of "offset" gear for melee (bow? if that's your kind of thing) With decent enough gear for your level, and the spells at your disposal such as mana shield, you can make an effective battlemage. In late normal and early nightmare I found this to be the easiest alternative. Late nightmare it was a much more uncommon problem due to the better negative resistance gear as well as the usability of my spells increasing.

2.) While I constantly wish there was a "Cold Wall" or whatever spell when I run into a behemoth that is immune to everything but cold AFTER elemental drain, I think I would ultimately not like something like that actually introduced. Cold spells "Chill" as well, they can not have the damage output or utility of fire and lightning spells with this added benefit.
I find that with sentinel, blizzard and iceblast I am capable enough to do cold damage the few times I feel the need.

3.) If mind mace WAS changed to physical, the damage would most certainly have to be nerfed. Otherwise I would likely rarely use any other spell... And that's a problem.
1. In addition to not having any skills with bows and swords, they have very poor attack speeds. And I recall that my warrior could barely use a very good bow to kill anything on normal, and he's better at bows than the sorcerer. I did that as an attempt to drop the spells and be more warriory... but instead I dropped the warrior, as this simply did not work.

2. Cold wall does not have to have the dps of the fire wall. Perhaps it could have a lower dps but chill enemies who pass through it, so that they spend a little more time inside. Ice is actually my favourite element, why would it be used only as a last ditch effort when nothing else works? I would gladly use cold spells as my main offensive... if they were comparable in power and utility (chilling included) to some fire and lightning spells.

3. Try throwing a mind mace at an enemy. It may say "300 damage per second" but you'll notice that it crosses an enemy for about 1/3 of a second ONLY, and unless there is a horde of enemies behind, the rest goes to waste. And it's about double the Fireball cost, for less damage. It deals less damage than EVEN frost spells. The only spell that deals less damage is the Flame Wave, but that's cause it works in the same way except passes the enemy even faster. Yeah, if changed to physical without editing damage, it would be weak, costly, and you'd be using THIS when nothing else works.

Wingard wrote:"Frostwall" ? YES! We need this! It could make it way into the first spot of level 4. Infravision would then be placed in lvl 5.

On topic: what if Mind mace did two kinds of damage? Both magic and psyhical. It's graphic sure does make one think there is psyhical damage involved ( spikes ).
The slightly weaker but chilling frost wall? That'd be useful. Why not a reasonably small circle area instead of a wall? Also kinda I like the idea of dividing damage, half physical half magical, but at the same time, as I described, I still think that the mindmace would be relatively weak even if its element was the previous physical sort. Maybe if Mind Mace and Flame Wave were changed to deal flat damage instead of damage per second? Currently they pass the monster tile way too quickly to deal their stated damage.
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Jofuss
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Post by Jofuss »

Elle wrote: 1. In addition to not having any skills with bows and swords, they have very poor attack speeds. And I recall that my warrior could barely use a very good bow to kill anything on normal, and he's better at bows than the sorcerer. I did that as an attempt to drop the spells and be more warriory... but instead I dropped the warrior, as this simply did not work.

2. Cold wall does not have to have the dps of the fire wall. Perhaps it could have a lower dps but chill enemies who pass through it, so that they spend a little more time inside. Ice is actually my favourite element, why would it be used only as a last ditch effort when nothing else works? I would gladly use cold spells as my main offensive... if they were comparable in power and utility (chilling included) to some fire and lightning spells.

3. Try throwing a mind mace at an enemy. It may say "300 damage per second" but you'll notice that it crosses an enemy for about 1/3 of a second ONLY, and unless there is a horde of enemies behind, the rest goes to waste. And it's about double the Fireball cost, for less damage. It deals less damage than EVEN frost spells. The only spell that deals less damage is the Flame Wave, but that's cause it works in the same way except passes the enemy even faster. Yeah, if changed to physical without editing damage, it would be weak, costly, and you'd be using THIS when nothing else works.
1.) That's odd as I have never really had any trouble using melee or bows on any class in Diablo even granted there are certain classes better at certain things. I've spent a large amount of time meleeing as sorcerers in both belzebub and vanilla diablo when the character is at such a point where I get sick of chugging blue potions. If this just doesn't work for you then I'm sorry and perhaps there should be a solution for people who can't make it work. The point of my statement, though, was that you are not FORCED to use spells only on a sorcerer.

2.) It would actually and very clearly HAVE to have less damage than a fire/lightning alternative, for at the very least the reason you state. It would have a chilling effect, keeping them in the field longer. I like the thought of cold damage spells, but ultimately the spells do less damage and cost more mana than fire or lightning alternatives. This is why I personally use them as a last resort. If they did comparable damage for a comparable cost, there would be no negative aspect to using them while gaining the utility of the chilling effect. Thus they would be used exclusively unless the mob was cold immune. There HAS to be a trade off to the chilling effect.

3.) I just did a test with mind mace. I repeated this scenario a few times to get an average of the damage since this is a spell with a damage range. I walked up to a "Fire Clan Archer" with 920-1000 HP. I cast a single mind mace at him. My mind mace has a listed damage of 365 - 725 / sec. On the average of a dozen attempts, the "Fire Clan Archer" was losing about a third of its hit points. Now I do not know what the monsters magic resistance or physical resistance is but this figures out to be an average of about 325 or so damage which makes me think the "Fire Clan Archer" has around 40 percent magic resistance. I do not know what the average physical resistance of generic monsters is but I would imagine it would be somewhere in the same neighborhood of 40 percent. This would thus give me a spell that does over half listed damage to just about EVERY monster in the game... a SINGLE SPELL. Even though I am one of the first people to suggest additional physical damage on spells (at least on the forum,) and am still a proponent for the implementation of such a system, I would not welcome this form of mind mace as it would throw the current spell system into more chaos.
The slightly weaker but chilling frost wall? That'd be useful. Why not a reasonably small circle area instead of a wall?
Well we do currently have a circular ice damage spell, or do you mean something more akin to "Ring of Fire" from Hellfire? If that's what you mean, that might be interesting... If there was a frost wall spell implemented it would have to be more than "slightly weaker" as for the reasons stated above.
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