Ranged monsters annoyances

Jofuss · Post by **Jofuss** » 29 Mar, 2014 16:00

Is there any plan to make ranged monsters less annoying...?

I say this based on the fact that they can aggro and thus shoot much farther than the player can see and they can often shoot from behind corners/columns and such that if fire is returned can not hit them.

IE: Bone archer behind a column shooting arrows at me from before I could even see it. As I approach, it continues to fire and hurt me while I then return fire and it can not hit the bone archer but can only hit the column.

If this is how it has to be then so be it, its just very aggravating when dozens of succubi are shooting at you from off the screen in all directions and most returned fire can not hit its target. You then reposition to be able to hit them and aggravate even more succubi, or counselors or whatever.

AlinBallin · Post by **AlinBallin** » 29 Mar, 2014 16:45

welcome to my world

*runs after a sucubuss behind the corner*
thinks aobut the coward sucubus

*turns the corner to see hundreds of bloodstar being launched at you from the end of depth which even you, great barbarian cant see this far*

Constance · Post by **Constance** » 29 Mar, 2014 18:59

Hmm it's true that ranged ennemies seem to detect you from way farther than in the original game.
I mean, it's OK that they can attack you from far away when you're fleeing after they detected you, but it always seemed a bit weird to me since I've started playing this mod that they can detect you from so far.

radicool · Post by **radicool** » 30 Mar, 2014 0:34

2 ranged mechanics I find annoying:

1.) Excessively moving units like Succubuses (only if your meele in my opinion)
2.) Those Mage's in Hell. Their teleport mechanics are beyond infuriating. They take forever to kill because they are teleporting half the time. They must be horrible for any meele characters.

^^ That bastard...

Jofuss · Post by **Jofuss** » 30 Mar, 2014 3:31

I agree the mages must be horrible for melee but they are just as bad for ranged... Lightning or arrows constantly miss because they teleport in just long enough to target and then move again before projectiles can reach them! O_o

Constance · Post by **Constance** » 30 Mar, 2014 10:57

Yeah, the fact that they can't be hit when they've started their teleport animation is a bit irritating to me too as a mostly Rogue player.

andronnik · Post by **andronnik** » 30 Mar, 2014 21:10

Guys, they were just the same in D1. What do you want, that they become easier in this mod, which is actually supposed to be more difficult?

riesa · Post by **riesa** » 30 Mar, 2014 21:35

andronnik wrote:Guys, they were just the same in D1. What do you want, that they become easier in this mod, which is actually supposed to be more difficult?

It was easier to deal with them in vanilla Diablo. In Belzebub they're:

a) teleporting in more random directions
b) can show up and insantly teleport away without making any action or taking any damage (in D1 they were moving away after dealing or receiving dmg).

So maybe people want original mages AI to come back ;p

andronnik · Post by **andronnik** » 30 Mar, 2014 22:32

riesa wrote: It was easier to deal with them in vanilla Diablo. In Belzebub they're:

a) teleporting in more random directions
b) can show up and insantly teleport away without making any action or taking any damage (in D1 they were moving away after dealing or receiving dmg).

So maybe people want original mages AI to come back ;p

ok, I beg my pardon, didn't know that

I am also speaking from a sorcerer's perspective, maybe that's why i think they are ok!

Constance · Post by **Constance** » 30 Mar, 2014 23:12

Well if at least Necromancers could not summon skeletons on the opposite side of walls…

Jofuss · Post by **Jofuss** » 31 Mar, 2014 1:41

b) can show up and insantly teleport away without making any action or taking any damage (in D1 they were moving away after dealing or receiving dmg).

Well if at least Necromancers could not summon skeletons on the opposite side of walls…

^^ This

radicool · Post by **radicool** » 31 Mar, 2014 13:08

Guys, they were just the same in D1. What do you want, that they become easier in this mod, which is actually supposed to be more difficult?

This isn't about making the game easier. In fact, I don't want it easier. It's about making a good game. Although I like different types of monsters to have different mechanics to be unique, the teleporting ability the mage's have is unbalanced for a melee character, not to mention plain tedious for ranged characters.

This mod has the opportunity to remove tedious and unbalanced gameplay elements and create a more fun game. I remember playing Diablo 1 with my cousin. He was a warrior. He ran at a mage, hit him once and he teleported away. Teleported after the second hit too. On his 3rd hit, the mage died. Now repeat that for the 100+ mages on each level. Just boring as fu** gameplay.

Teleport just needs to be nerfed or reworked. Maybe adding a largish cooldown, a maximum teleport range, etc. To compensate for the difficulty loss, the mage could have more damage, a secondary spell or something.

angra · Post by **angra** » 31 Mar, 2014 14:09

I think that all of you are missing out some points
1. Ranged enemies in this mod do much less damage than melee ones. And if you add enough " -damage from enemies" then their damage can become neglectable. Also they are fragile then melee ones.
2. Enemies with teleport spend too much time in teleporting instead of damaging. So you can continue to explore, pick up items, kill other enemies and just kill teleporting bastards only when they stupidly jump right near you.
3. Most ranged enemies follow you. If you are smarter than AI then you can just step back around nearest corner and kill them one by one. Of course you need enough damage from single blow to push them in hit recovery state to prevent them from fleeing.

Paar · Post by **Paar** » 31 Mar, 2014 16:32

radicool wrote:
Guys, they were just the same in D1. What do you want, that they become easier in this mod, which is actually supposed to be more difficult?
This isn't about making the game easier. In fact, I don't want it easier. It's about making a good game. Although I like different types of monsters to have different mechanics to be unique, the teleporting ability the mage's have is unbalanced for a melee character, not to mention plain tedious for ranged characters.

This mod has the opportunity to remove tedious and unbalanced gameplay elements and create a more fun game. I remember playing Diablo 1 with my cousin. He was a warrior. He ran at a mage, hit him once and he teleported away. Teleported after the second hit too. On his 3rd hit, the mage died. Now repeat that for the 100+ mages on each level. Just boring as fu** gameplay.

Teleport just needs to be nerfed or reworked. Maybe adding a largish cooldown, a maximum teleport range, etc. To compensate for the difficulty loss, the mage could have more damage, a secondary spell or something.

I somewhat agree with this point. Most of the time I play as a warrior and killing those mages is a real nightmare. This is not about difficulty, this is about bad game mechanism which takes away the most important aspect of any game. Fun.
The most annoying thing is the fact you cannot damage the mages when they begin to teleport (and thus make them stop moving). Just changing that would be great.
I think every range enemy is pain for melee character because they're constantly retreating and halft the time you must be chasing them across the map (except skeletons and spitting dogs). You will kill them eventually but it takes forever. It's ultra-annoying.

Jofuss · Post by **Jofuss** » 31 Mar, 2014 22:23

I think that all of you are missing out some points
1. Ranged enemies in this mod do much less damage than melee ones. And if you add enough " -damage from enemies" then their damage can become neglectable. Also they are fragile then melee ones.
2. Enemies with teleport spend too much time in teleporting instead of damaging. So you can continue to explore, pick up items, kill other enemies and just kill teleporting bastards only when they stupidly jump right near you.
3. Most ranged enemies follow you. If you are smarter than AI then you can just step back around nearest corner and kill them one by one. Of course you need enough damage from single blow to push them in hit recovery state to prevent them from fleeing.

I think YOU may be missing some key points.

1. Some of the ranged monsters, Mages are a good example, are capable of doing significantly more damage than there corresponding melee counterpart. Magical ranged attacks have resistances that reduce them, yes, but aside from the stray block (if you happen to use a shield,) they DO NOT MISS. Take into account acid puddles and fire/lightning wall, you can end up with a room where there is no safe place to stand pretty quickly. A handful of melee mobs could be kited practically indefinitely if need be.

When a Black Knight has 800 HP and a Counselor has 600 HP, your second point is mostly academic.

If I walk into a room of 6 Black Knights, I'm fine... They die, I fall asleep bored. (Unless the black knight is the variant that charges? I can never remember.)

If I walk into a room of 6 Counselors (or Necromancers...) I'm about to get very frustrated with the game and either waste a lot more time/mana killing them while taking more damage and consuming mana potions, or I will die.

2. When a mage teleports around they are not hurting you... This is a valid point. The problem is they have dropped firewalls all around the room, summond a bunch of skeletal archers to shoot at you, or employed some other form of damage they continue to stack while teleporting all around the room to safety.

3. My favorite thing to do is step behind a wall and have a necromancer keep summoning skeletons. The skeletons come along to attack me or when I finally give up and try to lure the mage out again I get pelted by a dozen burning dead archers and a mage that will STILL not follow me out.

Most of the ranged mobs are annoying with there constant retreating and 1.5X view range vs the player as well as pinpoint range attack accuracy.

The mage class mobs are, by far, a different animal altogether. These bastards are beyond annoying... They are a pain in the ass.

Ranged monsters annoyances

Ranged monsters annoyances

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