Game balance and immunities
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BrightLord
- Posts: 396
- Joined: 20 Jan, 2014 10:23
Game balance and immunities
There are some serious balance problems in tchernobog/belzebub when it comes to spellcasters. Basically sorceror and to lesser extent necromancer grow in strength too quickly. Currently one way to stop them from destroying everything instantly are immunities. This is however rather lame and not fun. Immunity is good mechanism but it should only be applied where it makes sense like Balrog being immune to fire and not for balance reasons.
They grow in strength quickly, yet when Hell rolls around and fire/lightning immune mobs show up, it becomes very hard. Archer/Melee is much easier for endgame.
Guardian damage is tied to firebolt damage. Currently, you can do a ton of damage with Guardian. Like 4k-5k. If firebolt/holybolt are fixed and cannot reach 128 skill level, that would balance out things a lot.
Guardian damage is tied to firebolt damage. Currently, you can do a ton of damage with Guardian. Like 4k-5k. If firebolt/holybolt are fixed and cannot reach 128 skill level, that would balance out things a lot.
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DacianDraco
- Posts: 461
- Joined: 30 Aug, 2015 4:04
- Location: Cybertron
I believe a way to balance things is have spellbooks' Required Level to learn new spell levels be progressive, like Magic Requirement is, so one would need to level up in order to better their spells, thus dealing less dmg from the start and allowing monsters to be immune to less elements all of a sudden.
Also in Belzebub it is currently impossible to learn some spells up to lvl 15 even with all points into Magic, all perfect gear with a max roll on +Magic and +All Attributes, drinking an Elixir, touching an Eerie Shrine and hoping that the Fountain of Tears randomly swaps one attribute for some +Magic, so the overall max attainable Mag by all means is not enough. But if +levels from shrines are to remain in Tchernobog then this doesn't need fixing, otherwise it should be addressed.
Also in Belzebub it is currently impossible to learn some spells up to lvl 15 even with all points into Magic, all perfect gear with a max roll on +Magic and +All Attributes, drinking an Elixir, touching an Eerie Shrine and hoping that the Fountain of Tears randomly swaps one attribute for some +Magic, so the overall max attainable Mag by all means is not enough. But if +levels from shrines are to remain in Tchernobog then this doesn't need fixing, otherwise it should be addressed.
Last edited by DacianDraco on 21 Nov, 2016 20:48, edited 1 time in total.
I was thinking of the 1st and 2nd choices, I don't really find it a problem to have mega immune mobs (except which champion or maybe boss too? is immune to every element except physical), it makes the game a bit more challenging for mage characters.
On the other hand this feature can get boring since in many diablo related games (original Diablo 2, mods) they decided to do that
and could be a very interesting idea for a "Reduce area of effect spells damage and increase their cost." update where mages will be weaker (however don't forget to balance a bit the Rogue too, because I assure you she can be on pair with the Sorcerer now or close to it).
EDIT: I think DacianDraco's idea is good too to have spellbooks' Required Level to learn new spell levels, like in The Hell mod.
On the other hand this feature can get boring since in many diablo related games (original Diablo 2, mods) they decided to do that
and could be a very interesting idea for a "Reduce area of effect spells damage and increase their cost." update where mages will be weaker (however don't forget to balance a bit the Rogue too, because I assure you she can be on pair with the Sorcerer now or close to it).
EDIT: I think DacianDraco's idea is good too to have spellbooks' Required Level to learn new spell levels, like in The Hell mod.
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BrightLord
- Posts: 396
- Joined: 20 Jan, 2014 10:23
I do not want to make sorceror or necro to feel underpowered. There is no problem with destroying 2-3 monsters at same time. It's chainlightning and similar spam that is too powerful. Adding cooldowns makes whole thing annoying to play.
Progressive level requirement for spell books is definately good idea. I would also really like to reduce amount of immunities and move difficulty towards AI. There is also problem that many spell damage and mana req formulas don't make any sense and need to be redone.
Progressive level requirement for spell books is definately good idea. I would also really like to reduce amount of immunities and move difficulty towards AI. There is also problem that many spell damage and mana req formulas don't make any sense and need to be redone.
Ye, chain lightning is kinda OP. But there is sure a way to fix it. I remember how you nerfed Apocalypse by adding a long cooldown to it and increasing manacost, which turned out to be effective, or nerfing Stone Curse and Lightning Wall /Fire Wall.
So from one side, maybe adding mana cost and decreasing the dmg per bolt and/or decresing the number of bolts would be a solution.
But from the other side, i personally don't see a big problem in sorcerer being able to clear groups of mobs fast. This is his strong side, while he is pretty weak against bosses in comparison to Rogue or well geared Barbarian (dunno about other classes - didn't play them much).
So from one side, maybe adding mana cost and decreasing the dmg per bolt and/or decresing the number of bolts would be a solution.
But from the other side, i personally don't see a big problem in sorcerer being able to clear groups of mobs fast. This is his strong side, while he is pretty weak against bosses in comparison to Rogue or well geared Barbarian (dunno about other classes - didn't play them much).
uRa!
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RagingSloth
- Posts: 4
- Joined: 19 Nov, 2016 23:06
Personally I think it is fine the way it is. Maybe relax the total immunity to all in favor of extremely resistant to all.
Although I do believe that trash mobs should not be immune to anything without it making sense for that particular mob type (like your Balrog example) on any difficulty.
I commented in another thread recently that for sorcs this is the way they are balanced at higher difficulties. The big difference between Belzebub/Tchernobog and normal D1 is the hp cap - I could stone curse & golem my way through hell/hell, but with enchantments and huge hp pools this means I just ignore boss mobs that are immune all, cuz ain't no body got time for that.
Although I do believe that trash mobs should not be immune to anything without it making sense for that particular mob type (like your Balrog example) on any difficulty.
I commented in another thread recently that for sorcs this is the way they are balanced at higher difficulties. The big difference between Belzebub/Tchernobog and normal D1 is the hp cap - I could stone curse & golem my way through hell/hell, but with enchantments and huge hp pools this means I just ignore boss mobs that are immune all, cuz ain't no body got time for that.
Let us Identify the problem first:
The Answer is the power of several AoE spells. (especially chain lightning).
Right now Magic is hyper-inflated. Higher level spells require obscene amounts of Magic attribute to memorize, and they also deal insane amount of damage in large radius. To combat this, resistance and immunities were necessery. But the system itself is still flaved.
So, what about proposed balancing changes?
I say:
1: reduce spell damage
2: reduce the number of immunities
3: reduce AoE of chain lightning by limiting projectile number
4: Increase the number of single immunities early-to-mid game, to force casters to use many spells.
5: Change Flamewave and Mind Mace mechanics to one-hit spells, instead of damage-per-second type like lightning.
6: Add / Increase cooldown on some spells.
[edit]
7: As my fellow Tchernobogians above me mentioned, adding level requirement to spells would also work. Starting casters would use Firebolts, then switch to Fireballs. Higher lever casters would use Flame Wave (currently almost useless due to dmg mechanics) or Immolation, and Meteor Shower could be End-game.
With those changes casters should be forced to use many spells and tactics on different enemies, instead of cheesing content with Chain Lightning or Guardian.
What would happen is only top damage weapons would be useful, rendering their secondary stats obsolete. Just like in early D3.
What makes those two spellcasters imbalanced in early game?Basically sorceror and to lesser extent necromancer grow in strength too quickly.
The Answer is the power of several AoE spells. (especially chain lightning).
I agree. Immunity is a shortcut, but where it solves one problem, it creates new one: It stops chain lightning spamming Sorcerer from clearing entire cave levels in 20 seconds, but on the other hand it renders him useless without using his class skill before he is able to find end-game immunity/resistance piercing items.Currently one way to stop them from destroying everything instantly are immunities. This is however rather lame and not fun. Immunity is good mechanism but it should only be applied where it makes sense like Balrog being immune to fire and not for balance reasons.
Right now Magic is hyper-inflated. Higher level spells require obscene amounts of Magic attribute to memorize, and they also deal insane amount of damage in large radius. To combat this, resistance and immunities were necessery. But the system itself is still flaved.
So, what about proposed balancing changes?
So we close our eyes and pretend the problem isn't there. Casters will still breeze through low-to-mid level range gameplay without effort, and will struggle in high-level range, or simply be forced to skip enemies they either can't kill / fight them for 30+minutes Because the % of spelldamage that passes resistance/immunity is so low.Keep immunities and high resistances.
This, along with several changes to several spells, seems the best option. Lower damage means no need for triple+ immunities. Mana cost, from my opinion, has no effect here. Not in a game in which You can gulp one potion after another. Also You might remember my early feedback in which I wrote that charged bolt was too strong compared to other spells from that level range. You increased it's mana cost, but in the end it's still the best spell.Reduce area of effect spells damage and increase their cost.
I say:
1: reduce spell damage
2: reduce the number of immunities
3: reduce AoE of chain lightning by limiting projectile number
4: Increase the number of single immunities early-to-mid game, to force casters to use many spells.
5: Change Flamewave and Mind Mace mechanics to one-hit spells, instead of damage-per-second type like lightning.
6: Add / Increase cooldown on some spells.
[edit]
7: As my fellow Tchernobogians above me mentioned, adding level requirement to spells would also work. Starting casters would use Firebolts, then switch to Fireballs. Higher lever casters would use Flame Wave (currently almost useless due to dmg mechanics) or Immolation, and Meteor Shower could be End-game.
With those changes casters should be forced to use many spells and tactics on different enemies, instead of cheesing content with Chain Lightning or Guardian.
This could work, but it ravages the mechanics and true feel of Diablo.Link spell damage calculations to player weapon damage so casters are balanced same way as melee
What would happen is only top damage weapons would be useful, rendering their secondary stats obsolete. Just like in early D3.
Wouldn't say it's good idea. First of all, both casters already have their defense strategies: They need to kill enemy before he reaches them. Sorcerer in this case is a classic glass-canon who needs to blow up enemies or teleport away from them. Necromancer uses meet shields for this. Both concepts are good, and they will work great with some tweaks. As far as Sorcerer goes, he actually struggles with charging/teleporting enemies that hitlock him.Reduce mana shield and blood pact from 100% so casters need to gear for defense
Really?Delete sorceror and necromancer
@BrightLord
Off topic.
Hey man! if i am not wrong u had given up on this and now u are back ?! Anyway, happy to see developers !!
On topic.
I dont know if i am missing something important but why not simply remove all Immunities and instead have Resists, high resists, low resists etc. Adjust them according to the difficulty.
Off topic.
Hey man! if i am not wrong u had given up on this and now u are back ?! Anyway, happy to see developers !!
On topic.
I dont know if i am missing something important but why not simply remove all Immunities and instead have Resists, high resists, low resists etc. Adjust them according to the difficulty.
I've only played Belzebub about 6 months ago. Used a Warrior, Barbarian, Rogue and Sorcerer (in that order). I'd say I'm probably just an average player when it comes to Diablo/Belzebub, I don't know all the small details etc but enjoy it a lot (thanks, great stuff by the way).
Checking now my Warrior and Barbarian each completed the game once and got to levels 35-36 before I gave up on them. My Rogue and Sorcerer each completed it thee times and got to level 44 before getting stuck.
To me the Warrior was a pain, his first skill is the useless Item Repair while the Barbarian at least had Rage. This made the Warrior seem awful at the start, I feel it's not just that the Sorcerer is overpowered at the start but the melee fighters feel underpowered, from start to finish. Even my rogue was a breeze compared to the melee fighters from the start.
I'd say mobility is a big problem, due to being melee, having zero range, can't deal their damage. Having to run up to things while being hit, being hit while trying to run away, spending most of a fight just running around rather than hitting and only gets worse when enemies run away. It's not much fun to be a melee guy that spends 80-95% of the rime running towards enemies rather than actually attacking. This isn't even factoring the normal running around when there aren't enemies around.
It felt like the melee characters are broken because they can't get in and out of combat effectively, a melee character that can't get to it's target quickly or flee quickly is pretty useless and is going to die. Something like the Warrior only gets 1 mobility skill as his final skill at level 32.
I don't see a quick and easy way to fix that mobility problem, and it will take a lot of nerfing to get Sorcerers or Rogues to feel as slow/boring. I guess an easy thing to do is make a teleport spell friendly to melee characters so they can go crazy with that but I'm not sure that would "feel" very good as all melee characters.
If the melee characters didn't spend 80-95% of fight time just running around, but were instead doing damage, would the Rogue and Sorcerer still feel so much more powerful, maybe, but the difference sure wouldn't be as bad anymore.
For me it's not that the Sorcerer is overpowered, it's that melee characters are broken. You would have to severely cripple my Rogue and Sorcerer to make them as bad as my Warrior and Barbarian. The Rogue and Sorcerer work, the melee guys didn't.
My Rogue only got stuck when starting Torment because there was some crazy thing that shot stuff at her each time she shot it, that was it for her, game over. My Sorcerer also got to Torment and thanks to that same stuff and immunities he also got instantly stuck. While both my melee guys in Hell couldn't deal with Diablo fast enough.
As an example look at "fighters" in modern ARPG games, melee characters have gained many ways to attack and move in on targets, all to avoid the problem of running,,running,,running while doing nothing. Until the melee characters are fixed you'll be nerfing the ranged ones forever until the cows come home to Diablo 1.
That's just the way I felt about it when I played it. I enjoyed it a lot, it was so much fun playing it.
Also on the topic of immunities, I don't think anything should have more than 1 immunity and even then it should be appropriate (like a fire elemental being immune to fire etc). Multiple immunities are stupid and hacked on solutions in any such game.
Checking now my Warrior and Barbarian each completed the game once and got to levels 35-36 before I gave up on them. My Rogue and Sorcerer each completed it thee times and got to level 44 before getting stuck.
To me the Warrior was a pain, his first skill is the useless Item Repair while the Barbarian at least had Rage. This made the Warrior seem awful at the start, I feel it's not just that the Sorcerer is overpowered at the start but the melee fighters feel underpowered, from start to finish. Even my rogue was a breeze compared to the melee fighters from the start.
I'd say mobility is a big problem, due to being melee, having zero range, can't deal their damage. Having to run up to things while being hit, being hit while trying to run away, spending most of a fight just running around rather than hitting and only gets worse when enemies run away. It's not much fun to be a melee guy that spends 80-95% of the rime running towards enemies rather than actually attacking. This isn't even factoring the normal running around when there aren't enemies around.
It felt like the melee characters are broken because they can't get in and out of combat effectively, a melee character that can't get to it's target quickly or flee quickly is pretty useless and is going to die. Something like the Warrior only gets 1 mobility skill as his final skill at level 32.
I don't see a quick and easy way to fix that mobility problem, and it will take a lot of nerfing to get Sorcerers or Rogues to feel as slow/boring. I guess an easy thing to do is make a teleport spell friendly to melee characters so they can go crazy with that but I'm not sure that would "feel" very good as all melee characters.
If the melee characters didn't spend 80-95% of fight time just running around, but were instead doing damage, would the Rogue and Sorcerer still feel so much more powerful, maybe, but the difference sure wouldn't be as bad anymore.
For me it's not that the Sorcerer is overpowered, it's that melee characters are broken. You would have to severely cripple my Rogue and Sorcerer to make them as bad as my Warrior and Barbarian. The Rogue and Sorcerer work, the melee guys didn't.
My Rogue only got stuck when starting Torment because there was some crazy thing that shot stuff at her each time she shot it, that was it for her, game over. My Sorcerer also got to Torment and thanks to that same stuff and immunities he also got instantly stuck. While both my melee guys in Hell couldn't deal with Diablo fast enough.
As an example look at "fighters" in modern ARPG games, melee characters have gained many ways to attack and move in on targets, all to avoid the problem of running,,running,,running while doing nothing. Until the melee characters are fixed you'll be nerfing the ranged ones forever until the cows come home to Diablo 1.
That's just the way I felt about it when I played it. I enjoyed it a lot, it was so much fun playing it.
Also on the topic of immunities, I don't think anything should have more than 1 immunity and even then it should be appropriate (like a fire elemental being immune to fire etc). Multiple immunities are stupid and hacked on solutions in any such game.
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DacianDraco
- Posts: 461
- Joined: 30 Aug, 2015 4:04
- Location: Cybertron
There really isn't a problem with mobility, Frenzy can make Barbarian borderline uncontrollable (higher speed then town walk speed), Warrior's Charge takes you to target with no timer so you can jump between targets, and kinda the same for Assassin since she uses Dragon Flight to essentially Telehit enemies and after buffs her speed too. Plus in Tchernobog build fighter class characters skills don't cost mana anymore, so you can use mana exclusively for spells, Teleport for ex.
Also for the Rogue issue walk diagonally 1 space, shoot, repeat, it the case of that Poison Immune that when is hit shoots those poison bolts at you. This is my take on this but there may be others.
Now, besides 2 full normal playthroughs with all 6 characters, i also did one without spending any attribute points gained from leveling or using the +stats quest reward with all 6 characters again, and learned only 1 level of all spells without getting the +spell levels from quests, and have gotten to Torment difficulty Hell lvls (13), didn't at all overlevel (am at clvl 45) and killed everything in all levels, could have gotten further but got lost in other games since then. I've done this to see how exactly skill/spells progress with level and difficulty before Brightlord sent me the code for skills and spell, there are GBs of pics i took available in the documentation topic i made if anyone doesn't believe it was done. Admittedly i have had all set/uniq items except 1 ring and 1 armor at my disposal found/farmed from previous playthroughs, plus crazy crafts and whatnot, but still it is possible to do it even with severe character handicap, not just raw dmg, AC, life/mana pool suffering but also skill handicap since no synergy from stats. Anyway, the idea is i could type pages about anything in game but i don't believe Brightlord will read them, and it's not like he asked for general input, so lets stick to the topic, if there will be need for a suggestions/feedback thread he will make one and all these things should be put in there, imo he knows what he's done(doing) better then any of us, and i admit it's not perfect but better then anything we can think of atm. And i'm not trying to put off anyone, just saying it's a waste to spend time typing these things right now, so come back with this sometime in the future.
Also for the Rogue issue walk diagonally 1 space, shoot, repeat, it the case of that Poison Immune that when is hit shoots those poison bolts at you. This is my take on this but there may be others.
Now, besides 2 full normal playthroughs with all 6 characters, i also did one without spending any attribute points gained from leveling or using the +stats quest reward with all 6 characters again, and learned only 1 level of all spells without getting the +spell levels from quests, and have gotten to Torment difficulty Hell lvls (13), didn't at all overlevel (am at clvl 45) and killed everything in all levels, could have gotten further but got lost in other games since then. I've done this to see how exactly skill/spells progress with level and difficulty before Brightlord sent me the code for skills and spell, there are GBs of pics i took available in the documentation topic i made if anyone doesn't believe it was done. Admittedly i have had all set/uniq items except 1 ring and 1 armor at my disposal found/farmed from previous playthroughs, plus crazy crafts and whatnot, but still it is possible to do it even with severe character handicap, not just raw dmg, AC, life/mana pool suffering but also skill handicap since no synergy from stats. Anyway, the idea is i could type pages about anything in game but i don't believe Brightlord will read them, and it's not like he asked for general input, so lets stick to the topic, if there will be need for a suggestions/feedback thread he will make one and all these things should be put in there, imo he knows what he's done(doing) better then any of us, and i admit it's not perfect but better then anything we can think of atm. And i'm not trying to put off anyone, just saying it's a waste to spend time typing these things right now, so come back with this sometime in the future.
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expendable_10
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 26 Dec, 2016 2:59
What about some sort of new "Perk" or "Mastery" system to address some of these issues? Probably would make a bunch of extra work and more coding, but this could address some issues for each class that can either boost each class, and maybe even at an expense to some ability or stats while boosting something else.
For example, maybe the Barbarian class could have a perk called "Unstoppable" that gives him a less chance to be interrupted, for both walking and attacking. Another perk could be a chance for maybe a counter-attack when struck by a melee attacker. The Warrior could have a perk (called like "Shield Training" or "Sword Training") that gives him Faster Hit/Shield Recovery time so he can continue to attack back at a quicker pace before the enemy lands another hit.
Each class would have their own set perks (or even some that cross together) that would make sense for each class based upon their lore and combat training.... I wouldn't know how to design it or how many perks to have per class, but maybe to have these "perks" upgradeable either with quests, leveling, items, etc. But, maybe for the time being for testing and time, it can just be a set-stat with no upgradeable points or anything.
I'm kind of thinking of this from The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing, for those that have played it; it had a perk system that boosted many other stats for the character.
Would this "Perk" or "Mastery" system be a viable option to help aid the balance issues? I know it probably isn't the final solution, but it may help alongside with other tweaks within the current game.
However, I'm loving every bit of this mod! A lot of good memories coming back... I think I've successfully switched from D3 to Tchernobog
For example, maybe the Barbarian class could have a perk called "Unstoppable" that gives him a less chance to be interrupted, for both walking and attacking. Another perk could be a chance for maybe a counter-attack when struck by a melee attacker. The Warrior could have a perk (called like "Shield Training" or "Sword Training") that gives him Faster Hit/Shield Recovery time so he can continue to attack back at a quicker pace before the enemy lands another hit.
Each class would have their own set perks (or even some that cross together) that would make sense for each class based upon their lore and combat training.... I wouldn't know how to design it or how many perks to have per class, but maybe to have these "perks" upgradeable either with quests, leveling, items, etc. But, maybe for the time being for testing and time, it can just be a set-stat with no upgradeable points or anything.
I'm kind of thinking of this from The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing, for those that have played it; it had a perk system that boosted many other stats for the character.
Would this "Perk" or "Mastery" system be a viable option to help aid the balance issues? I know it probably isn't the final solution, but it may help alongside with other tweaks within the current game.
However, I'm loving every bit of this mod! A lot of good memories coming back... I think I've successfully switched from D3 to Tchernobog
I think getting rid of things that are immune to everything and just making them highly resistant to everything.. and/or lowering and removing the timer on the lower resistance skill would be the way to go.
I see no problem with a fully geared character, of any class, being able to clear out levels quickly..
I see no problem with a fully geared character, of any class, being able to clear out levels quickly..
Happy to see you again BrightLord.
HD mod is High resolution mod.
Therefore ranged character has inherent advantage with copping monsters compared to original low resolution games.
Moreover, many skills such as time delay and guided arrow makes more feel easy to rangers. (However, necromancer can kill torment diablo with lowest level acutually)
On the other hand, the most hard making probelm in the melee characters (babarian, warrior) are counter attack damages of boss charachter.
Ranged character can avoid such damages, but melee characters are not.
I think, that is the main problem of character game level of difficulty differences.
HD mod is High resolution mod.
Therefore ranged character has inherent advantage with copping monsters compared to original low resolution games.
Moreover, many skills such as time delay and guided arrow makes more feel easy to rangers. (However, necromancer can kill torment diablo with lowest level acutually)
On the other hand, the most hard making probelm in the melee characters (babarian, warrior) are counter attack damages of boss charachter.
Ranged character can avoid such damages, but melee characters are not.
I think, that is the main problem of character game level of difficulty differences.
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